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General Comics Chat: Bendis Has Spat on My Soul

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    Siege is coming to an end (underwhelming, much?) and I do recall being PROMISED that once this unsightly and somewhat desperate "event" was ended we would have (for the first time in bloody ages) the PROPER AVENGERS back in the game.
    You know, the Fillet Mignon of the Avengers....Iron Man, Thor and Cap (Steve Rogers Cap, not that Bucky geezer).
    All fine and good to see the Big Three back in the last few pages of Siege # 3, right? Then how come in the new Avengers series that Marvel is pushing out has Bucky Cap?
    Am I the only one who feels really cheated about this? OK, I know I'm cranky and maybe a little bit unhinged....but we were promised the REAL Cap in the Avengers.
    No, I don't care if Steve Rogers is in Secret Avengers. I was promised the REAL Cap in the REAL Avengers.
    Nearly seven years of Bendis farting around PRETENDING to tell good stories and now this slap in the chops?
    Nah, no thanks.
    Once Siege is wrapped and I have the final issues of Dark Avengers, New Avengers and Mighty Avengers I am dropping SOOOOOOOOO much Marvel books it's unreal.
    At least DC are honest when they're raiding your wallets.
    Screw you, Bendis.
  2.  
    I prefer Bucky as Cap to Steve. He should have stayed dead. Or trapped in time. Or space. Or whatever the hell Reborn was about.
    • CommentAuthorLee
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2010
     
    Reborn was about something? Who'd of thought?

    I like Bucky Cap too, and will buy all the Avengers books, regardless of who is in them.
    • CommentAuthorMidnighter
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2010
     
    Were we ever "promised" Steve back? I don't remember them ever saying that.

    I'm glad Bucky is staying as Cap, makes the character much more interesting. And what's Bendis got to do with it, he didn't change Bucky into Cap, he's just using someone elses set up in his books.
    • CommentAuthorCaptain Si
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2010
     
    There's been that many members of the Avengers, I've never really thought it 'mattered' overmuch anyway. Its not like the Avengers are the Fantastic Four or something (and even the FF have had the odd line up change over the years without anyone being bothered). I've never really got the point of the Avengers being filled by the most powerful members of the MU (ditto DCs JSA or whatever) - what do they do? stand around and be the bestest of the best? There can't be that many threats that require those powerful individuals be required to form a team on a regular basis. But I digress. all Bendis seems to be guilty of is Heroes - like plotting (i have skipped great swathes of season four and everytime i switch it on its the same - mucking about around a Carnival, Sylar confusingly being dead but not and possibly just in someones mind and then in his own body again and oh... sorry i bored myself).
    • CommentAuthorsmiggy3000
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     
    I want to see a team of the worst possible Avengers members, the guys you call when the threat just isnt big enougth got the big 3 and so forth...
    • CommentAuthorMidnighter
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     
    That would be the Great Lakes Avengers!
  8.  
    I think I’m with The Internet on this one: Steve Rogers doesn’t know what NASCAR is. Steve Rogers should burn in Hell. Bucky haz gun! OMG! LOL!

    Bucky-Cap has been pretty dang crackerjack in Wolverine: Weapon X. But then so has Steve Rogers-Cap. It might just be that a good writer can make any character worth reading. Maybe it isn’t the guy under the mask maybe it’s the guy behind the word processor that matters? It’s a thought isn’t it? Of course whether the writer guy is any good is up to you. I don’t read the Avengers franchise unit dispersal system range of titles, myself so I can’t judge (but I do! And you all cain’t stop me! Hahahahaha!) Also: Wolverine: Weapon X? It’s entirely awesome, yes? Deathlok! That’d be a “yes” then.

    With all that in mind, I obviously will still not be buying any of the Avengers titles. Although I would probably buy Raunchy Avengers written and drawn by Howard Victor Chaykin. Or Hobo Avengers. Breaking my own rules (hey, they’re my rules!) I would probably buy Hobo Avengers whoever did it. How could Hobo Avengers not be awesome? Hobos – Assemble! Wait, Deathlok Avengers! Yessssssss! Call me, Marvel!
    • CommentAuthorLee
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     
    I've just been thinking about this in the loo (icky but true). I read Cap's book and Thor's book and Iron Man's books. I guess what I'd most enjoy from the Avengers would be a team of mostly people who cannot carry their own book (let's say Luke Cage, Hawkeye, Mockingbird, Iron Fist) plus a couple of big-sales hitters to ensure the book has longevity (ideally one of the 'big three' but Wolverine and Spidey might do). I guess that is a vote for Bendis' approach? I just like seeing a range of characters, I suppose.
    • CommentAuthorCaptain Si
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2010
     
    Thats why those early New Avengers issues were great. They were made up of lower tier and/ or forgotten characters and it was all great. I remember Tom Defalco wrote the Scott Lang Ant Man brillaintly in Fantastic Four, back in the day.
  11.  
    Bearing in mind that I think teams like the Avengers/JLA need to have different kinds of people so they can deal with different kinds of threats, and different personalities so they can spark off each other - no one wants to read the backslapping adventures of Cap and his bestest buddies- plus you gotta have the obligatory love triangle - my ideal Avengers line up would be:-

    Hawkeye
    War Machine
    Mockingbird
    Spider-Woman
    Scarlet Witch
    Wonder-Man
    The Vision
    USAgent

    Hang on, that was Avengers West Coast!
    • CommentAuthorLee
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
     
    I don't believe that USAgent is in anyone's ideal anything.
  13.  
    USAgent is ace. Fact. It's been chemically proven in tests and everything.
    • CommentAuthorLee
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
     
    I demand to see these tests so I can assess the level of rigour applied in getting fair and factual results!
  15.  
    USAgent is a recognised United States governmental security asset and as such any and all information pertaining to said individual falls within the remit of the Homeland Security Act. Citizen Lee please be advised that your request for information has resulted in your being assigned “Red Flag” status. Remain at your present location until a Relocation And Happiness Unit can be dispatched. All financial assets and blood relatives of Citizen Lee have now been reassigned as assets of the United States government. The United States government thanks you for your enquiry, Citizen Lee and hopes you will enjoy your stay in sunny Guantanamo Bay. Have a nice day!
    • CommentAuthorsmiggy3000
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
     
    oh wait, they already made that team, they had Nextwave, but they fort 'The New Paramounts' and Forbush Man...
  17.  
    I'm not a po-faced traditionalist by any means, I understand that characters have to evolve and sometimes be replaced.
    But the fact is.....BUCKY Cap is NOT The REAL Cap.
    Everyone knows that the Holy Avengers Trinity is Thor, Iron Man and Cap.
    Everyone else is just window dressing.....come on, admit it.
    • CommentAuthorMidnighter
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2010
     
    "Everyone knows that the Holy Avengers Trinity is Thor, Iron Man and Cap."

    And it still is Thor, Iron Man and "Cap", just not Steve ;-)

    Anyway, Cap isn't a founding member, if anything the trinity should be Thor, IM and Ant Man!
    •  
      CommentAuthorOK Comics
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2010
     
    I hear a lot of talk about how Bucky is a better Captain America than Steve, and for a while I would have agreed with them, but the most recent storyline has been so bad I've stopped reading Cap for the first time in years.
    And I'm not the only one. The regular Captain America series is loosing more and more readers very month.
    Maybe people think it's time for Steve to come back!

    I agree that the three key Avengers characters are Thor, Iron Man and Captain America. But that dynamic doesn't work quite as well with Bucky wielding the shield. He just doesn't have the depth of relationship with the others.
  20.  
    OKcomicsman must be off his feed because right about now would probably be a good time to point out that Joe Casey and Phil Noto are currently re-imaginerising the earliest Avengers stories featuring The Holy Trinity in Avengers: The Origin. Issue one - already in stores now! No, I'm not reading it so I don't know if it's any good.

    "Maybe people think it's time for Steve to come back!" Er. He is back. I mean Reborn was pretty dull, long-winded and incomprehensible but I'm pretty sure the whole point was that the old Steve-rino was back.

    I too hear a lot of talk about how Bucky is the better Cap than Steve and what I do is I back hand that deluded slob to the floor and then lean into his crying face and hiss:
    "Who punched Hitler!?"
    I then slap him so hard his gums bleed and say: "Steve Rogers!"
    Then I do it again:
    "Who made Nixon take his own life!?!".<Slap!> "Steve Rogers!"
    "Who is "loyal only to The Dream"!" <Slap!> <Slap!> "Steve Rogers!"
    "Who cries over lost birthday cakes?!?" <Slap!><Slap!><Slap!>
    "Barnessssssssssssssssssssss!!!!!"
    • CommentAuthorsmiggy3000
    • CommentTimeMay 3rd 2010 edited
     
    I havn't read alot of either, but did enjoy Buckys story ark when the origional Human Torch was stolen, and I enjoyed it because it was different to standard Captain America, it was more espionagey... I did have a point with this I think maybe, but Bucky should probably be in the Secret Avengers...
  22.  
    Say, maybe Bucky is in the Secret Avengers, Smiggy3000 it's just...a secret!

    I think there should be an Avengers book for every man woman and child on the face of this great planet of ours. It would be about your own personal Avenger who follows you around and helps you out on a day to day basis. A jar of pickles a bit reluctant to loosen? Your own personal Avenger steps in and twists that lid right off! No milk for brekky? Whhooooosh! your own personal Avenger superspeeds down the newsie and returns bearing his/her lactic deliverance.

    There would of course be 6 billion issues every week. But that's 6 billion issue ones initially so imagine the sales! Also it would be the exact same comic just with your name hastily filled in all the speech bubbles and a stick person representing you to ensure universal recognition. Otherwise it would just be unworkable and ridiculous!

    And if sales drop off then they can just reboot with Your Own Personal Dark Avenger #1! Wherein of course said Avenger would now make your life miserable by having you framed for murder and destroying everything you hold dear while you can only watch helplessly! Fun grown up times!

    Then of course when interest wanes you could have another reboot of Your Own Personal Heroic Avenger! In which your Avenger would be...um...heroic! like it helpfully says on the cover, y'know, just so you know what it is you are reading, personally I like being told what it is I'm reading because I am a busy modern lady with a hectic lifestyle. Um, yeah, this didn't really go anywhere did it?

    Oh, wait. Maybe people are dropping Captain America because after Reborn the price went up? Prices go up, sales go down? Maybe?
    •  
      CommentAuthorOK Comics
    • CommentTimeMay 6th 2010
     
    Or maybe Reborn didn't make sense! Try explaining it to somebody out loud. See what happens. I'll tell you what happens, you end up doing the medium of comics a disservice.
    "Yeah he died, but it was a time machine bullet that tore his essence from his body and then they buried his body and his essence went time travelling like in Quantum Leap. Then the Red Skull got his body and Cap's essence had to fight inside his own head for control of his body..."
    After four years of pretty down to earth stories, I can totally see why people would not like this sci-fi, metaphysical story...

    And. I know Steve's back. But he doesn't want to come back to be Captain America. "No Bucky, you do it. I'll just go home and watch TV in my Captain America pyjamas waiting for Siege to be on the news!!!"
  24.  
    I liked Reborn, does that make me a bad person? I understood it fine, I also understood Final Crisis, however, I still don't really understand what happened in Superman For Tomorrow.
  25.  
    I think most people understood Reborn - the problem is it doesn't make sense even then! As Jared was saying it was a leap from these gritty "realistic" espionage, almost James Bond-esque stories to a comic book cliché. The super-villain doesn't kill off the hero because he wants his body (er... not in that way) and surprise, it backfires! It wasn't particularly exciting either - Cap didn't seem to have any control on his past life vests, so not much happening there other than us seeing stories that have already happened, then he gets back to the "now" (actually an alternate reality "now") inside his own head and takes down the Red Skull without much effort.

    Brubaker claimed that the whole thing was planned from the beginning and when he "killed Cap" he knew exactly how he was coming back. But the whole thing seemed to me like the traditional "How can we bring back the guy who's dead and everyone saw he was dead" comic book trick that every character goes through - there are only so many options - usually the guy who died wasn't the real deal he was a clone/twin/alternate universe version/a skrull/someone else in the costume.
  26.  
    I think everyone who goes into OKComics should ask OKComicsman to explain Reborn out loud. I bet by the end of the day his pants are hitched up round his ears!

    While I understood Reborn enough to understand it didn't make sense I have to admit that I didn't understand why Sharon Carter managed to stop weeping long enough to make the Red Skull all big. Unless it was some kind of bizarre sexual metaphor. Also did I miss what The Visions' very special and very important personal message from Steve was? I may have done, I was kind of dozing through large parts of this incredible Epic. Also sticking in-story teasers for yet another Event coming down the pike was poor show. Mind you I do like the way that all these Events that have been planned ever since the author was in utero all appear to be cobbled together nonsense. That keeps them fresh and vibrant I feel.

    Captain America jammies? I'd sit around watching TV in them all day too! Steve Rogers - everyman, everyslob!

    Superman: for Tomorrow was about how priests with cancer should just die of cancer otherwise they'll end up fighting a big robot man named after a play by Peter Shaffer on an island. Forever. It was great.
  27.  
    I doubt these events were actually planned out like they say, House of M was just a big success that they wanted to try it again, and they were lucky with Civil War, then things probably just spiralled...
  28.  
    From what Brubaker has said Cap's "death" and return was planned all along but I doubt it was gonna be spread out over a mini series. In fact I'm sure he said the plan was for Steve to get shot and be back within about 6 issues, so it was never meant to be as big or as long as it has been. But hey ho, I love Bucky-Cap and Steve running his own team will be cool. You can bet one day Steve will be Cap once again.
    • CommentAuthorLee
    • CommentTimeMay 6th 2010
     
    By the time the last issue came out, I think Reborn too longer to finish than Cap stayed dead...

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